| The Beatles, the Bands, the Biz: An Insider's Look at an Era
By Ken Mansfield
Ken Mansfield, the former U.S. manager of Apple Records and American Grammy winning music producer, and strategist behind The Beatles' Apple label, has written a book titled: The White Book: The Beatles, the Bands, the Biz: An Insider's Look at an Era.
Ken devotes a whole track (Chapter) to his time working with Waylon Jennings. Ken kindly granted me an interview to explain further his memories of working with Waylon and the Outlaws from 1973-1978.
Rick Sharp Country: Ken, I know you've worked with many artists and different genres of music. Could you explain the differences, if any, in working, let's say, between The Beatles and Waylon, or even Andy Williams?
Ken: The minute you ask someone to make a comparison with Waylon you are in a no man's land. The easiest way to explain the differences between his artistry and any one else's is that it was different. Waylon was up close and personal and far away and distant both with his music and his person - he could accomplish this feat within moments or even simultaneously. As I explain in my new book, The Beatles were a band and experienced an international fame that will never be seen again - their stage was the world and once they broke through the battle with the industry and its forces was finally over. Waylon had to fight for and fight to maintain every inch of ground he gained. Andy Williams was mom and apple pie - need I continue the comparison on that one?
Rick Sharp Country: If you could record any artists that you've previously worked with, who would you take to the studio again?
Ken: Waylon.
Rick Sharp Country: How did Waylon work in the studio and did he work differently than most artists?
Ken: Waylon and I clicked from the moment we met - on all levels. Once in a doctor's office he asked if he could put me down as his next of kin on the admittance form. Our backgrounds were very much alike and we both wanted to live outside the establishment bubble with our lives and our music. I was a giant fan of his going into the relationship. He was not yet established at that time so even though we both had had our personal measures of success we had the opportunity to create something new together and we sensed that. He brought "feel" into the studio and I brought LA/London rock and roll technology to the sessions. We had this thing where we knew great musicianship whether it would be on a technical or inspirational level. I can remember times where we would here a musician play only two or three simple notes on a piano or guitar and we would turn to each other and go - wow! He had this sign language when things like this would happen - he would look down at his arm and run his hand along the hairs as if to say they were standing on end. I started something with Waylon in the studio that I don't think he ever allowed with any other producer. When he was doing a guitar overdub I would sit in an opposing chair right in his face and close my eyes as he played. He would watch my reactions and play to what he thought I was getting off on.
Rick Sharp Country: At the time you worked with Waylon his music was changing direction. Did you notice the blues influence that had laced his early music and surfaced later with Waymore Blues?
Ken: Waylon could sing "Chitty, Chitty Bang, Bang" and the soul would come through the song. There was something deep down inside, a hurt, loneliness, a mission or whatever that put a feeling into his voice that no other artist has ever had. The closest for me would be Nina Simone and the way her soulful singing and piano playing melded together like Waylon's voice and guitar. Waylon was a street level student of off types of music. These influences, be they subtle or exaggerated at times, were the mixture that kept him from being pegged into one genre.
Rick Sharp Country: Was Ralph Mooney doing sessions with Waylon at the time, and if so do you have any stories about the legendary steel guitarist? If not, who did steel guitar for Waylon at the time?
Ken: "Moon" was the steel guitar player for Waylon for almost the entire five years I spent with him. One night at Roy Orbison's studio I was so blown away with something Moon played that I couldn't believe what I heard. Waylon grabbed me by the shoulder and said, "You just got 'Mooned', Hoss." He was truly a legend. Moon over indulged sometimes before going on stage and one night he was playing so badly that Waylon walked over during the show and unplugged his amp. Moon laid his hands on his steel guitar, put his head down and sat the whole set out knowing what was to come afterwards. He was going to end up in what we called "the barrel" (being in trouble with Waylon) for a while for that little episode.
Rick Sharp Country: How much time was spent deciding to cut "McArthur's Park"? I'm sure it must have seemed to be a strange selection for country music of the day.
Ken: I produced the second version of that song on the Are You Ready for the Country album - we called it "MacArthur's Park Revisited". Again, this was one of the things that we saw eye-to-eye on, this sense that no song or musical direction was out of our realm of possibility. It was almost a gentle defiance on our part. I know when Waylon recorded someone else's song, his rendition would become the definitive version. I produced another song like that with him, "Amanda", (I didn't get an album liner credit but did receive the gold record from RCA) and even though Don Williams already had a hit with the song, I think it is most identified with Waylon's interpretation. The night we cut "MacArthur's Park" for the second time, it just happened. I had learned in producing Waylon to always make sure the tape was running if he was standing close to a microphone with a guitar in his hand. That night we had just finished one of the planned songs for the album and Waylon didn't get up from his chair. He hesitated and started singing and playing the song. Ritchie and the band were so used to this kind of spontaneity that they joined in and we cut the song in total top to bottom in one take. I later added strings and took the tape up to Graham Nash's house in San Francisco because he agreed to sing some background on the song. I brought the tape back to Nashville and played it for Waylon late one night in his office at Tompall's building (Hillbilly Hotel). When Waylon heard Graham's vocals, he threw his hands in the air and basically fell on the floor because was so knocked out with what I had done.
Rick Sharp Country: What collaboration did you have with Jessi Colter?
Ken: I produced her first four albums and all of her major hits. Although Waylon had little to do with "I'm Not Lisa" and "What Happened to Blue Eyes", we pulled a Lennon/McCartney thing and listed ourselves as co-producers. After my initial recordings with her, we did actually share production duties - taking turns sitting in the producer's chair at the sessions when our individual talents were appropriate. Jessi, like Waylon, was an "on the natch" artist and you had to be on your toes because she did not like overdubbing her vocals. Most of her vocals on her albums were live. One of the most exciting nights I ever had in the studio was when Waylon and Roy Orbison decided to sing trio background with Jessi on her gospel album. It was another one of those moments that just happened. The Outlaw years were an amazing time because as a producer I was having number one records with these two all at the same time and it got real crazy.
Rick Sharp Country: Do you know if there was any personal contact between Waylon and Neil Young before recording Are You Ready For The Country?
Ken: No, that was entirely my doing. I brought the song to Waylon originally as something I thought would be perfect for him to sing at that time in history, and also as the song that would be the concept hook for the album. We brought in Cher's guitar player, Ike and Tina Turner's horn players, and some LA pickers for the sessions. We cut the album in Hollywood in order to get away from the Nashville establishment, which was very rigid at the time. Waylon had changed some of the lyrics to Neil's song and I was a little uncomfortable about how Neil would react if we didn't get some prior form of approval from him or his publisher. As luck would have it Neil walked into Graham's house the day I was there and I played him the version we had recorded. When I asked him if it was okay if we changed some of the lyrics he said, "Why not - who knows where I got them in the first place?"
Rick Sharp Country: Looking back, why do you think Waylon and the Outlaws connected with people on such a deep level?
Ken: I think people sensed freedom in the music and it was definitely something new, fresh and outside the formula Nashville sound. I also believe the fans were able to live vicariously through our personal and musical escapades and that the Outlaw thing gave them a needed escape when they listened to the music. Picture this: whenever we rolled down the highway in our tour bus, there'd be twenty or so Hell's Angels following us from gig to gig. We'd show up on time to a venue for sound check all ready to go and the concert promoter was surprised to see us show up on time and in relative working condition. We noticed a strange thing during the concerts as they grew in attendance - the front rows were filled with young people who were used to getting to festival seating events early. What was even more interesting was that not only had they been drawn by the new music we were doing but also they had obviously become fans. Kids who were seventeen years old were calling out for older Waylon songs.
Rick Sharp Country: What, in your opinion, ended it for the Outlaws?
Ken: Sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Rick Sharp Country: Before asking the last question, I'd like to thank Ken Mansfield for sharing his memories of our heroes like Waylon and The Beatles. In looking back and following the music business to where it is now, do you have any advice for struggling artists who are trying to find a place for themselves in music today?
Ken: If you are serious you have to make a 100 percent commitment to your career - anything less is guaranteed failure. You need to check to see if you honestly have the talent to go the whole way because once the decision to go for it is made, based on hometown success etc., you have to realize it is like moving from high school football to the NFL when it comes to the competition. You also need to live in the proper environment and that usually means moving to the centers of the kind of music you want to get into. Anything outside of LA, Nashville and New York City will usually prove out to be second best. Once there you need to sweep floors at the studios, act as a gofer, play in bars, etc. - whatever necessary to meld yourself into the community and pay your dues. The industry tends to bring each other along when someone starts to make it and those buddies that played the freebies with you are the ones that get chosen to join in on the ride.
To order The White Book, The Beatles, The Bands, the Biz: an Insiders Look at an Era, go to www.amazon.com or www.fabwhitebook.com.
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